ich habe mal eben bei den holländern gelesen...


- De meeste MM zeilers vinden de huidige klasseregels goed en zien geen noodzaak tot verscherping dan wel versoepeling.

das würde dazu führen, dass thomas super-kiel-mod weiterhin legal bleibt und wir auf teufel komm raus im innenraum tunen dürfen.

allerdings sind sie auch gegen eine abschaffung der segel und rigg materialschlacht.

Hi Henning,

This is not an official answer as I doub't at this stage, without seeing exactly what you propose, anyboady can rule one way or another.

Yeti is quite right in his analysis.
He is also right that if you look hard enough you can work round elements in the rules and again he is perfectly correct when he says that these areas are covered by the spirit.

The Spirit is defined by the sailors at the waterside.
If two thirds of the sailors believe your boat complies with their interpretation of the spirit all will be well.
Remember the International rule is no longer something owned by one nation or two or three individuals.
The rule is now owned jointly by 12 active Nations and the vast majority do not want any change.
The spirit is owned by a minimum of two thirds of the sailors at an event.

In other words you can do anything you like within the current rules but if more than a third of sailors at an event feel that what you have done is against the spirit you will be asked to either remove what you have done or you won't be able to race.

Yeti pointed out that,
1.2 The layout and construction of internal components is free

The only change to this was outlawing modification to the keelbox.
This was something that I actually didn't have a problem with as I couldn't really see that there was a direct performance benefit however the majority of the committee voted against it and so it was outlawed.

Your comment about a carbon fairing to the fin would be another area where I could safely predict that the majority of Nations would seek to outlaw if anyone attempted to sail at a MMI rule event.

We have just had our Nationals and the best sailor's won and not the best built boat.
Just about every boat was different in some way or other.
However there was not a single boat that was significantly faster than any other.
This shows that the MMI rule, as it is understood by all the competitors at our Nationals, is working very well.

If your boat is shown to be significantly quicker than the rest, the natural reaction will be to ask is it the sailor or the boat.
If they decide it's the boat expect people to scrutinise what you have done.
If you finish in 20th nobody will give a damn.

Hello Mike

I disagree to your position completly!

a rule should be a rule. what is a rule for? a rule is something like a law saying what you're allowed to do and what not. it's not a democratic process where 2/3 of a group should confirm the meaning of the rule. a rule is a number of paragraphs defining a situation. the rules are the guideline to build and tune a boat in every class all over the world. it assures you that a modification you did or you didn't is applying the rules and it's allowed to sail your boat for racing. if there's a question whether or not something applies the rule you're going to ask a commitee (that's what I did). If I follow your arguments I'll be at the lake on saturday and 20 of 30 are saying it's ok. I'm at the lake on sunday, one left the site and the counting is 19 of 29 so it's not ok. that's the way how it's working in all of the mmi countries? i've some serious doubts about that.

you like the Laser for ex. in the laser you don't ask all sailors previous to the first race whether or not a specific boat is applying to the rules. at least in germany we got a defined set of rules which is easy to understand and within these rules you do what you want. following your explanation the rule is a bullshit and i just have to convince 2/3 of the sailors at the EC that my boat is legal. Following this i would like to call a vote for your main beam system, for the small pipe for the jib of jeroen and so on. the small pipe of jeroen for ex. is clearly out of the wording of the rule (shall be fixed to the deck). even if it is not possible to build it for everybody and you can't upgrade old boats you gave the permission.

I can live with the fact that you're going to close some of the obvious loopholes every year and that the german boats (at least mine) will be legal for only one event... you're going to "repair" the rule every year to outlaw whatsoever kind of mistakes. i can not live with the fact that there's no rule to be followed but a public voting for each event. BTW: the public voting has not been defined in one way way or another for the rules. until now the handling of the rule by the commitee in my eyes shows that you're not going a straight way just following the rule. you're going a zickzack course following what you think is common sense. in this case we don't need a rule.

Mike, to be honest, and I think in this forum we can be honest to each other: your definition of 2/3 of the sailors... is the biggest nonsense I ever heard. you want to play a game without any rules. the only rule is: if you're too fast, you're out.

In no class like it or not you're going to stop technical developments. in every class the sailors are going to find ways to improve their ships. it's normal to customize your material and of course you're doing a customization not only for the beauty but for the performance of your material. this is normal and as this is normal it's normal to have some rules to provide the limits. here we've got a set of poor rules and some of us are going to figure out some limits... (it's already stupid that I had to ask this question... It's covered by the rules and that's it.). anyway for the good of it...


to give you an idea about what i did (the boat is build now and i'm going to compete what so ever the opinion of somebody is...) it's containing a servo angle of 270 ° + a heavy servo arm + maybe 4x aa batteries. I'm going to cut the servoarm to make the batteries an integral part of the arm. everything is quite easy to build, to upgrade in an existing boat and i'm even going to post the images after the EC to enable everybody to build it.


BTW: In germany we figured out that the weight of the boat is not the key to win. everybody should think about whether or not it's a good idea to build your boat at the lower weight limt or to put some extra ballast where it necessary.

Ich hoffe, dass wir bei der EM schnell mit dem abstimmen über die boote durch sind, damit wir auch noch zum segeln kommen.

Henning, why don't you  go and sail IOM. There you have exactly the thick pack of rules you are longing for.

Exept for you, Thomas and Yeti  the rest of the MM world can perfectly live with what we have now. I guess most people do not like the attitude you show and especially not the concequences they may bring: A thick rule book and checks and discussions about it just like the IOM. If you do not like it then stay away. We can perfectly have fun without this kind of attitude.

What works in the spirit is that the group you are sailing with is decisive when people want to 'bend the rules'. This is in the contrary of what up to now has been the case in existing RC classes: you try to get your boat through the test. Again Henning: that is another kind of ballgame.

Here you risk in Rosas that you can pack your boat and go if the majority does not like what you have done. And please stop that theoretical discussion. Most essential things are covered by the rules: period. The thing you want to do with the batteries is not in the rules and we are not to keen to ad something against it. So then who are we to say something about it. It are the skippers that count.

Most of the people just have an MM  to come and sail with in this great event and like to be with the other people around from all over Europe and beyond. Sailing fun is the key word. If you want to comete in Rosas it might be a good idea that you just like in 2007 do the same and join the fun and keep this away, please.

But ok, if you want a ruling, here is one: the servo's are only for the sheets or for the rudder, not for moving around the batteries.

Wieviele Tage dauert den die EM? Mein Vorschlag: 2 Tage zum Begutachten, 1Tag für die Abstimmungen, 1 Tag für Nachbesserungen,  1 Vormittag Abstimmung über die nachgebesserten Boote,  am Nachmittag dann endlich Segeln, 2 Tage Diskussion und Abstimmung der Regeln für die nächste Saison

Macht ungefähr eine Woche

Hi Christian, you back again.

Wished you came sailing as often as you jump on discussions like this. Has it occurred to you that it is always the same people doing this. What positive input have you ever had to the MMI community so far? Has it occurred to you that this selective group of people only come from germany where you never liked the change of the idea of you great guru?

You know what is ridiculous: using your sail arm as a counterweight.

I will close this dicsussion now as I am a bit too familiar where this is heading too: nowhere.

Better continue on your own forum.